Posted by Commodore Cale Reilly (STF Surgeon General) in Discussion: Proposed changes to the new member application form (alt-RPGs)

Posted by Vice Admiral Lindsay Bayes (Chief EGO) in Discussion: Proposed changes to the new member application form (alt-RPGs)

Posted by Sidney Parker in Discussion: Proposed changes to the new member application form (alt-RPGs)
Posted by… suppressed (12) by the Post Ghost! 👻
Background

Pursuant to the FCOMM bylaw, a new member may be placed on an alt-RPG ship if two conditions are met:
(i) The ship’s alt-RPG charter allows new members to be placed on the ship, and
(ii) The new member specifically requests to be placed on that alt-RPG.

At the moment, the following alt-RPGs have charters that allow for them to receive new members:
-Chernov (Abramsverse) (NOTE: library version of the charter is out-of-date - see Dedul Edict #5
-Ogawa (medical-theme ship)

As an aside, the following alt-RPGs have charters that either do not allow new members or are silent on the issue (the bylaw requires express permission), but that may change in the future:
-Bonaventure (Enterprise-era ship)
-Constellation (Comedy-theme ship)
-Merrimack (TOS movie-era ship)
-Oed V (planet RPG area)

Originally, the new member application form only allowed for new members to pick from “Academy” and “Non-Academy” (or however we phrased it back then). After a Command discussion, Abramsverse was specifically added to the membership form. (Strangely enough, it took a number of years before the Chernov’s charter was actually amended to formalize the practice). Now, new members can request “Academy”, “TNG-era”, or “Abramsverse”.

Problem

There have been a few related problems to just allowing new members to pick to be placed on the Abramsverse with no further input or discussion. I’ll review those in the “Discussion” portion, but there are serious retention issues with that practice.

In addition, it’s not clear how the PDept is supposed to address the Ogawa, or what to do if the club ever changes the charters for our other alt-RPG ships.

All of the above calls for a change to the membership application form, including changes to what the club previously approved in a Command discussion.

Discussion

I’ll start with the retention numbers. I’ve pulled some numbers from my reports over the past 12 months. These are very, very rough numbers, based on small sample sizes, and doesn’t address the “weirdness” (as I’ll call it) from late 2018 and early 2019. Putting that aside, here are the numbers.

Within approximately one month of a new member being placed, the Academy has a retention rate of 40%, the main fleet ships have a retention rate of 51%, and the Chernov has a retention rate of 14%. I am only counting members who posted and were not AWOL at the time their status was checked (rostered or otherwise). Even with those rough numbers, the problem appears right at the start.

(You may be asking why non-Academy appears to be doing better than the Academy. That’s because (a) the statistic includes returning members who ask the PDept to place them, and (b) the Academy gets so many more placements than the main fleet that they also get an increase of people who just aren’t interested after applying.)

The numbers get even worse when you fast-forward a month. While both the Academy and main fleet go down a bit (30% for the Academy, 42% for the main fleet), the Chernov goes down to zero percent!! In the last twelve months, we have not retained a single member on that ship to the two-month mark!

By the third month, the numbers go down a bit more for the Academy (20% and stabilize outside the Academy (42%). But the Chernov never recovers.

I believe there are a few factors giving rise to this:

(1) When a new member is requests an Abramsverse ship, we are limited to a single ship. Problems on that single ship directly impacts a new member able/willing to stick around.

(2) Alt-RPGs are hard to administer properly at the best of time, and often required experienced members in many of the leadership roles. Ensuring the alt-RPG theme is kept, filling vacancies from members who may not be interested in the theme, etc., all contribute to the difficulties an alt-RPG has. Trying to add mentorship for a new member who may be a complete newbie to role-playing is a difficult task to throw on top of that work.

(3) It takes a certain amount of experience level to role-play in an alt-RPG of what is already a somewhat unique role-playing club. You can’t look to other ships for as much guidance. Members on Discord may not be as familiar. The descriptions we have about departments, positions, are different because of what is contained in a unique ship charter.

Proposal

The Personnel Department is proposing a few changes to the membership form.

The big change is to remove “Abramsverse” from the list of options for new members.

To make up for that change - and to allow members to also pick other alt-RPGs if available for new members - we would add text at the end of the application that states “Star-fleet.com also allows players to role-play in alternative role-playing ships that offer different themes (such as a specialized medical ship) or a different time period (such as the Abramsverse movies). If you are interested in having your first character placed on an “alt-RPG” ship, please let us know in the comments area and one of our staff members will discuss it with you shortly.”

In addition, we also propose to add a new drop down menu that will ask the applicants to state their RP experience (novice, limited experience, experience but not with our style, experience in multiple styles) which will assist our discussion with them. This information may also assist with other initiatives in the future.

The Personnel Department hopes to make the changes shortly so we can start addressing the retention issue for Abramsverse requests. We hope to make the change by the end of the November, so we would like to close this discussion before then.

Thanks,
Daniel Lerner
Personnel Director

Given the current condition of the Chernov, I think this would be a good move. If it were to improve I might feel differently.

Adam W.

Well, that’s an interesting topic in itself, the idea of a “current condition” of the Chernov.

The theory behind allowing people to join the Chernov originally was that it was important to have people join our only Abramsverse ship because Abramsverse movies were still being made and it was felt that it was important to give new people coming to the club because of those movies a choice of having that experience. I don’t know that I was ever personally convinced that was ever going to be a large number of people, but it made some sense at the time.

If the Chernov is in unusually bad shape compared to the rest of the club, yet we do not think that this is some inherent feature of being the Abramsverse ship, as Adam’s comment implies it isn’t (whether or not that implication was intended) then… why don’t we just fix whatever the problem is with the Chernov? I mean… it seems like there might be a larger problem here than whatever the choice is on a form, and I don’t know of a compelling argument to close off this particular choice for new people if we’re only talking about a problematic period of “late 2018 to early 2019” where retention has been bad when this option for it to take new members has existed since 2013.

Why is the Chernov retention rate so uniquely bad? Has it always been this bad and nobody noticed? Does the strategy in 2013 still make sense today (assuming it made sense originally, which… ehh)? These are questions I’d want to know the answers to before we decide to do anything here, and definitely before we start adding qualifiers like “current condition” as the justification for doing it.

Joe

While the current retention rates are probably what triggered us to look into the issue, the PDept is not basing this proposal just on the current retention issue.

The stats I cited are from the last 12 months just because they are easy to pull up. By memory alone, I don’t think the problem began only 12 months ago. I don’t know any member in the club who started on an alt-RPG ship.

We want to be able to deal with alt-RPG ship placement requests(not just the Chernov) on request-by-request basis. This gives us more freedom to see if the new member’s request makes sense in all of the circumstances, keeping in mind the limited info/experience they have with STF.

I seriously doubt Abramsverse is so popular that we need to keep it expressly stared on the application form. The fact that not a single person we placed there has stayed in the club for any reasonable period of time is arguably objective support of that.

Daniel

(Not sure why there was a double post before - sorry.)

I should correct my statement. I know one new member placed on an alt-RPG - not the Chernov - who stayed in STF. He made a very specific request in his application for a very specific reason, and the PDept considered it before agreeing that it would work out. That’s what we want to replicate for all alt-RPG ships that are allowed to receive new members.

The Chernov’s current health is irrelevant. Back when I was the ship’s FComm, the Chernov was one of the largest and most active ships in STF. I gave the ship’s CO a cabinet-level commendation for how well the Chernov was being run. Still couldn’t hold onto a single new member who picked the Chernov simply because it was on a drop-down menu on the application.

We made the change to the application form back in 2013 I am told. Well, I think the six-year experiment is over, with a clear conclusion. It isn’t working. Let’s try something else.

Daniel

Of the last 100 applications, how many requested Abramsverse? Additionally, the percentages are not meaningful without knowing the sample size. While you state its small, if that 14% equates to 1 or 2 people, then I would guess this whole discussion is somewhat irrelevant (I don’t know what the number is, so I don’t really have an opinion on this right now).

Of the last 100 applications, 13 people requested Abramsverse.

As someone who has been FCOMM/AFCOMM for many years with the Chernov it has always been a fickle beast I have had the task of working on. Like Dan said it has had record highs and then record lows. I have tried a few times to pin point and never really understood it’s roller coaster style of retention. Lately it has been in a slump which I have been noting and watching but for awhile it was rather stable, not light years ahead of anyone but it was keep post rates high and seemed to have a lot of crew interaction. That said Chernov has also been one of the most turnstile type ships. I have had a unique aspect of being FCOMM for so long I know I have had to work to find at least a dozen captains in it’s tenure.

Now what does this have to do with if it should be on the application, not sure. I have seen times when the applications seemed to be high and it did little for the ship and the flip just as true. Chernov has always in my opinion been this Schrodinger ship which is both insanely active and not at the same time.

~Steven Sigle

Sarah, 2APDir

Just going from my reports for the past 12 months (which is where the average 14% within one month and the ongoing 0% within two months retention figures come from), here are the raw numbers regarding requests:
October 2018: 4 Academy, 3 Main Fleet, 0 Abramsverse
November 2018: 4 Academy, 5 Main Fleet, 0 Abramsverse
December 2018: 9 Academy, 4 Main Fleet, 1 Abramsverse
January 2019: 6 Academy, 3 Main Fleet, 3 Abramsverse
February 2019: 4 Academy, 0 Main Fleet, 1 Abramsverse
March 2019: 2 Academy, 2 Main Fleet, 2 Abramsverse
April 2019: 4 Academy, 2 Main Fleet, 1 Abramsverse
May 2019: 2 Academy, 0 Main Fleet, 2 Abramsverse
June 2019: 1 Academy 2 Main Fleet, 0 Abramsverse
July 2019: 6 Academy, 3 Main Fleet, 1 Abramsverse
August 2019: 2 Academy, 1 Main Fleet, 0 Abramsverse
September 2019: 2 Academy, 0 Main Fleet, 0 Abramsverse

Daniel

I’ve ALWAYS tried my best to get people and to maintain posting ever since I started out as ther Chernovs CMO, then XO as and now its Captain. I have emailed people to ask for ideas for side SIMs and the like and to help me recruit people and keep them.

I’ve been on the ship for three years now I think and I’ve seen many people come and go. There are times where we post an insane amount and then nothing at all. Most of us on the ship are mentors and try to help. The last three or four people that came on board, only one posted and we then tried to help him. Then nothing. The others never posted even when welcome emails and hey how are you doing, do you need any help, emails.

I think the Abramsverse is cool and unique but they are based on movies and not an entire series like TNG, TOS, and the like. There is not much to go on as far as history, lore and future encounters and advances. Like what happened a hundred years later during TNG era? What are and who are we Allied with? What kind of super ships do we have now that we are at war with a planet Killing race?

I know I’m not on trial here but wanted to offer up my opinion since you all are talking about my ship. Are there some things that I can and should do? Yes.

But with the movie’s gone and no new lore, then people don’t want to be on the ship because they don’t know what to expect, which I think is cool because we can do whatever, but that affects retention. I try to do my best top make it a great ship and everyone on my crew is 100% on board to help with the ship.

Speaking of the crew, most are on multiple ships and when real life happens, we are one of the first ships that they cut ties to. I can’t blame them because I’ve been there.

We have been racked with GM problems since I’ve been on. And when the GM finally posts and gets the SIM moving again, then the command team goes AWOL. It’s a crappy cycle. I’ve tried to not let that happen, because our new command team is active and do is our GM.

I guess I’m rambling now. Sorry.

Travis Good
Captain, USS Chernov

I want to be very clear, here, Travis. The PDept’s proposal - and why it will affect the Chernov - is not about the Chernov, it’s status or the efforts of its crew. As I mentioned earlier, we’ve had a zero-rate retention for Abramsverse even when the Chernov was rated one of the best ships in the club. Nor are we cutting off all requests by a brand new member to join the Chernov, or any alt-RPG ship that accepts new members. It’s just no longer going to display as an equal choice between Academy and non-Academy ships. If the new member wants to join an alt-RPG ship, there will be more of a discussion between that new member and the PDept first. The proposal in no way is intended to reflect the Chernov, it’s status, or the crew’s ongoing efforts there. Given the six years of no sustainable new members there, I would have made this proposal if the Chernov was the best ship in the club (although, I admit, the Chernov’s current status is probably what prompted the PDept to look into it a bit more).

The reason we listed Abramsverse as an equal option to Academy and non-Academy was the belief at the time it would be attractive to potential members given the popularity of that movies series at the time. That idea did not pan out, we didn’t get any sustainable new members for the club from it - no matter how well the Chernov was doing as an RPG ship - and the popularity is no longer the same as it once was. Even though this is just a small bleed, it’s a bleed nonetheless, and we need to change the application form so we can try to close it.

Daniel

Ok. Awesome! Thanks.

Travis

I do agree with what Daniel just said. It makes good sense.

On another note Travis I think you have, as you indicated, a grand opportunity with this ship in the Amberverse. Since there is no new lore slash movies coming out come up with something big thats reasonable for that universe. Create your own story line and get with your Gm and run it out. Heck get with as many people as you can and come up with an idea that has an arc and create your own new lore. Vulcans change into a warrior race again to take vengence on a galaxy that abandoned them etc…

Anyway just something that came to me reading this discussion.

Sidney

Just chiming in here with my cold-addled brain, but this seems like a reasonable measure to take.

~Linds

As a fellow Alt CO and having been involved in the placements of new people for the last wee while I think this is a good idea personally.

Cale

Yeah I’m okay with it now that it’s been established that this is a decision about the original concept how it hasn’t actually panned out as expected and not any sort of temporary fleeting thing about the current state of the ship that might change later (which, just for the sake of clarity, I have no actual idea what the state is; I just don’t think we should make this sort of decision based on that particular criteria).

Joe