Discussion/Solutions - Milwuakie Plan Revisions - Mission Profile Section/Sizing Categories on Engineering Department

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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Right so to get things going now on revising things the first part up is the mission profile and sizing category areas of the Milwuakie plan. As was highlighted the big issue from these two starting ones were wording/structure (all across this document actually) which shouldnt take long, and the big thing is how STF handles ship sizing. Currently it does this by crew count, but as we've seen this makes it off kilter with more canon designs. So the idea is now being given in the first suggestion (though others can be made!) on using deck count ranges to define a ship class.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Currently the plan reads as follows:
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Mission Profile
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : All ships are either Primary Vessels, or Support Vessels (See Below). All Primary Vessels have one of three (3) Primary Missions:
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Science
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Study in depth cool stuff that someone else found; conduct experiments; study natural and artificial phenomenon.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Find new cool stuff; chart out new areas of space; seak out new life and new civilizations; To Boldly Go Where No Man Has Gone Before; Command; Diplomatic escort; Diplomatic conduct; Patrol; and various and sundry other general purpose stuff.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Combat
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Blow stuff up; Keep stuff from being blown up; Patrol to keep out other people who may want to blow stuff up; Help other ships blow stuff up; Protect other ships that are trying to blow stuff up.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Support Vessels have the Primary Mission of assisting other ships in fulfilling their Primary Mission.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Vessel Size
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Primary Vessels also come in three convienent sizes; Small, Large, and Super Sized. (No, wait, that's french fries. Starships come in Small, Medium, and Large.)
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : The size of a ship is determined by its standard crew complement. A class that is close to the borderline between two size classifications may be placed in either size classification as determined by the Engineering Department.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Vessels with a standard crew complement of 175 or less are classified as Small.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Vessels with a standard crew complement of 175 to 600 are classified as Medium.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Vessels with a standard crew complement of 600 or larger are classified as Large.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Vessels with a standard crew compliment of over 1000 are considered friggin' HUGE, but are still classified as Large.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Suggestion - Mission Profile Wording
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Mission Profile
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : All ships will be designated as either Primary Mission Capable (PMC) or Support and Service Vessel (SSV)
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : All ships designated for Primary Operations will fall into one of three categories: Science, Exploration, or Combat
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Roles:
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Science - Perform scientific analysis of stellar bodies, phenomenon, and anomalies. Conduct experiments in varying environments. Extrapolate data for use by Federation Science bodies and allied organizations. Provide scientific analysis support to fleet operations. Transport of scientific equipment and personnel. Assist in education efforts. Other tasks as may deemed necessary by Starfleet Command.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Exploration - Expand the known galaxy map. Chart newly discovered and uncharted systems. Maintain up to date mapping of known systems. First Contact and Diplomatic missions. Explore and catalog new areas of space. Provide assistance with system security as needed.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Combat - Application of force in conjunction with Starfleet and Federation operations. Fleet protection and system security operations. Incursion Prevention operations. Assist non-combat vessels in combat operations. Planetary Assault operations.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Support vessels will assist all PMC vessels with ongoing operations at the discretion of Starfleet Command.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : As far as ship classification sizing goes, most modern Navies use gross tonnage as the measuring aspect. Could we do something like that? Up to a certain amount would be considered Small, then Medium, Large. Anything past that would probably be considered a Dreadnought or Capital class ship.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I was actually reading through this and thought the same thing about the ship size. However to make it easier for the layman, we would need to provide a formula, or put it into something easier for most people to understand. Such as ship length, width, and height.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I would prefer going with something that is easy for they laymen to understand, hence the suggestion for deck count say, but other easy to get ways could also be devised. Ideally too I'd like to have something that wouldnt greatly differ from what we got now so there isnt yet another huge gap of differences from ancient specs like the Disco or what not vs newer ones currently in use
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I know this will potentially open a rabbit hole, but why limit to 3 primary classifications?
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : As for 3 classifications I think it was done to par down having a variety of naming classes, and then hence why Variants were introduced that fell outside the standard range ala heavy/mediumlight/tactical/etc. Again I'd be open to discuss this if we feel its worth it
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : What if we used a chart like this, or try and find something similar? http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html#mozTocId697772
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Thanks for your input so far James! I appreciate your feedback, I'll for now put this on the shelf for ideas while this discussion is continued.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Crew count is fine, but, and for future discussion, we need a way of calculating crew count. Because otherwise I could design a ship the size of the defiant, say it has 1000 crew members on it, and it's considered a large ship.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Maybe to make it easier for people, and easier to calculate, is you have the designer find a rough volume of the ship, simple length x width x height. I know this is not at all accurate for the ships actual volume, but if we use a consistent formula on all ships it would allow for easy grouping. We could even use current ships specs to help determine the end points for each section.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : So if i can put this out... Would it not be easier to determine and lay out for crew compliment guidlines based on physical dimensions. Say for every X Meters Width = X Number crew available... This equation would also need to take into account the actual requirements (Quarters) ECT... This provides for a more realistic feel to the vessel... (See Steves Defiant post above)
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : This model could also be taken into account on the actual space required for X size = Engine type/Phaser Type ECT on the vessel. This can also take into account and be looked at, Engine type (divided by) Mass = Effect in determining the actual available speeds ECT of the ship... Same with power.... This would make it more streamlined in how things are done.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : Apologies for my delay in replying to this and other proposed ideas I'm swamped atm with my final project in college so I'll nip this in the bud come the weekend. That said I will just say any suggestions will be considered, but as I highlighted above ideally they should try to keep things simple so that the non-technical minded and non-mathy or number crunching sort can easily look at something and go 'ok yeah this is how i do xyz' etc, ideally too is it doesnt create too big a gap between the old/current systems vs whatever we come up with next though this is a lesser desire on my part at least.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : Rob, I don't think it is super technical or mathy, especially since one of the requirements later in the spec is to list out a length, width and height. Most people have access to multiple calculators to do a simple equation, I have two right here at work, my computer and my phone. We are not asking people to solve a calculus equation here, just a simple equation for volume.
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: : : : : : : : : : : Let me clarify quickly here before I jet off to my IT help desk work tonight for college, I know the above was a quick and probably vagueish reply for which I'm sorry. That said i'm not against the ideas given so far, I just was saying in general for any other ideas suggested to try to keep it simple for the laymen sort. TBH given some time to think on it it as you point out below I actually am agreeing much with this, and....oddly you're reading my mind as I was also gonna mention the idea of seeing if for the future on the new site maybe we could create a drop down list system or calculator like you outline, though for now google sheets would work too.
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: : : : : : : : : : : In either case yet again I'll expand on my thoughts after help desk come the weekend!
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: : : : : : : : : : : : There are several pro's to doing a volume based equation to determine the size of the ship.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : 1 - It makes it much more realistic and true to the shows. We can also use information on those ships to help determine the size groupings.
: : : : : : : : : : : : 2 - It will give a much more accurate idea of crew numbers. By saying each crew member gets x amount of space, a max number is much easier to rely on. Instead of just winging it as we do now.
: : : : : : : : : : : : 3 - It easily incorporates our current system, as we can take into account the current ships in the tech manual in creating the upper and lower bounds. So all of the current ships can easily be converted to the new system, without having to change anything relating to their size.
: : : : : : : : : : : : 4 - It also helps designers get a better idea in their minds of what exactly they are designing. We only have rough numbers to go along with when creating a length, width and height of the ships. Yes height is sort of set by the deck number and the height of each deck, but otherwise the numbers are just like throwing a dart at a board. By basing everything off of a size that is easily calculated, it will help designers in the overall creation of the ship.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : An idea of something we can do is create an excel document, or a google sheet, that new designers can use to help them design a ship. If you want to make it easy for them, the least amount of non-mathy as possibly, we make a ship calculator. So they input items such as length, width, number of decks, and it can output number of crew, the size of the vessel and stuff like that. We can even make it so that as they select a secondary designation it highlights which weapons, shields and engines are available.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : It wouldn't be that hard to create, something I could put together in a couple of days. It could even be done in the form of a webpage if we wanted. It would be a pretty good solution to all of our suggestions here, while making it easy for the user.
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: : : : : : : : : : I was actually just talking to Philip and I was struck by a great idea. On a web based generator, if you have them put in the size they are looking for, and then a number of decks, you could make the length and width a slider, so they can play with the size to their liking. So you slide the length way way up, and it makes the width smaller, or vice versa.
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: : : : : : : : : : Just wanted to post up the idea before I forgot about it.
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: : : : : : : : : Pardon again in my reply to this between finals and now researching my old tech manuals for info. If memory serves the tng manual actually has a formula or least sizes that each say crew quarters are given. If then we figure roughly each person has X meters of space we then as mentioned above can get a rough formula for crew size and ship classing. If anyone else has the TNG manual and finds it do let me know please thanks! One thing we should also keep in mind is given the variety of writers and technical stuff involved some formula we make may not exactly match canon. But I figure if we can get within a reasonable average range then we should be ok to use it. Thoughts?
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: : : : : : : : I'll take a look when I get home as I have the manual sitting on my bookshelf. I'm all for a range, I think that would be the best way as it would allow people some creativity.
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: : : : : : : I think this system would make things easier for new ship builders as it gives a guidline to work off of. It would also make reviews of new specs easier. Ensuring thinhs are not op
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: : : : Ok So as I said I couldnt find the exact measurements in the TNG manual I swore they were there somewhere in the quarter sections but after three word by word run throughs I dont see them! urgh! So after some digging I found some info that in the 1960s NASa figured 28 meters per person would be a 'good sized long term habitat' for a long term lived spacecraft. So starting with that on a 100 crew sized ship (cruiser in trek terms say) just for crew quarters by that 60s guideline would mean the ship has at least 2,800 cubic meters given over to living space for the crew! Obviously in this measurement that would be only a single deck and s square shape. But I think it gives us a start. Obviously we could use other figures in descriptions for DH officers XO / CO / VIPs having more space but in general I think the 28 meters base for a starting point could work. Thoughts?
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: Ok so, in order to help put this into a more readable format I came up with (using above also)
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: Crew Quarters: 28 meters per person (double or triple rooms), 1 x Bathroom Facilities per room of 18 Meters.
: DH Quarters: 32 Meters
: XO/CO Quarters: 40 Meters
: VIP Quarters: 40 meters
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: The other thing that we could also look at would be placing a size on each different Engine type, and minimum crew to man that piece of equipment. That would also follow through with all other (IE: Weapons ECT)
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: The other thought that I had was assigning mass to each piece of equipment, so example a Type 10 Warp Core can go say speed of 9.9, but is reduced per every 1000 of mass, now the ship speeds are set as a standard. The bigger the ship the slower the ship. That part is just a concept though.
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Hey phillip thanks for contributing here. I agree with your first part for quarter sizes though I might suggest simplifying it some. The main reason I say this is I agree we need a new system but I also dont want to alienate those who arent good at more complex stuff. Juggling numbers scares folks off trust me Ive seen such in the past where people with good ideas for a ship ran off or vanished even with help when it came to figuring ship size or what not. Having weight measurements for all the other equipment etc would only complicate things

So using crew size as a base I'm going to suggest rounding things like so to include the bathroom space in the quarter list you show above.

Non-com/JO Quarters: minimum 46 meters (living/sleeping area+bathroom)
DH/General Guest Quarters: minimum 50 meters (living/sleeping area+bathroom)
XO/CO/VIP Quarters: minimum 58 meters (living/sleeping area+bathroom)

I say 'minimum' because this way if a designer wants to go a little higher than the minimum standards for some reason (like I do in description with the mythology class having all the quarters being larger then normal say) then a designer can do so. From here the rest of the ship's size can be determined based on its equipment for the concept during review or by feedback privately. This will make things simpler all around I think.

Thoughts?

Robert Archer EDir

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